Welcome to your online discussion of The Color Purple!
Together with members of your book group, you’ll be reading The Color Purple over the next several weeks. Although you're not required to take notes while you read, it would be wise to keep track of important events and characters for your own clarification. You are, however, expected to participate regularly and thoughtfully in an online discussion of SEVEN essential questions.
Here's how it works:
Divide your book roughly in half. You need to have read and blogged about these halves by the due dates below.
There are two kinds of posts in this discussion: response and comment.
Response = direct response to the essential questions
Comment = comment on someone else’s posted response or comment
- Post at least THREE responses for each half of your book (SIX overall). Try to address to a variety of essential questions over the course of your blogging.
- One of your six responses can be a “free-response" post.
- Post at least THREE comments for each half of your book (SIX overall).
Due dates:
- Post your first set of responses and comments by Thursday, May 16.
- Post your second set of responses and comments by Wednesday, May 29.
Essential Questions:
- Why is it difficult to see our own privilege & prejudice?
- Does everyone experience some form of privilege and prejudice? If so, how?
- How do we overcome the adverse effects of privilege and prejudice?
- In what ways are privilege & prejudice related?
- How do we become prejudiced?
- In what ways does this book refute the notion of the “single story”?
- How does the story (setting, characters, plot, etc.) reflect or illuminate the current state of race / gender relations in our country? Have we made any progress as a society?
** Free-response option: Address another issue/episode/or passage in the book that you find
significant for any reason.
Assessment: To earn maximum credit, post thoughtful responses that are at least a few sentences in length—and carefully proofread! Do not misspell characters' or authors’ names! Also, be sure to include specific references to the text (either details or short quotations). Page numbers, too, are always helpful.
While it's not based on race, Mr. _______ definitely has a prejudice against women, and he tells Harpo that the only way to get wives to "mind" is to hit them (37). I don't think that Harpo really believes this, but because his father tells him to, he'll probably hit his wife. This is a perfect example of an older family member passing down his biases to a younger family member, and that's how most prejudices are cultivated.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I was very interesting to see Harpo's reaction to what Mr. ________ tells him to do to get his wife to listen. Yet it was more interesting to see his wife's response. They are kind of like the opposite of Celie and Mr. ________'s relationship, because Harpo's wife fights back, and could even be described as stronger than Harpo, since Harpo's will was bent so easily by his father. It shows how weaker men are more easily swayed than stronger, more confident men. Harpo was unsure about how to get his wife to listen, so he was willing to do anything, even if he thought is was wrong. Boys were raised to be insensitive as well, so that also helps biases get passed on from generation to generation, since boys have been taught they aren't allowed to have weakness. Having a disobedient wife would be a perfect example of a flaw they aren't willing to live with.
DeleteAs you mentioned, Harpo could be described as weak — both in terms of physical strength and his strength as a character. This is shown by how Harpo's wife defies his abuse: "Next time us see Harpo his face a mess of bruises. His lip cut. One of his eyes shut like a fist. He walk stiff and say his teef ache" (38). This emphasizes not only her strength, but also his physical weakness compared to her. Also, Harpo clearly has weak character due to the fact that he listens to his father's advice without question. As you said, "weaker men are more easily swayed than stronger, more confident men". This leads to me to think that prejudice could be adopted from your parents/community, but more importantly that those who we trust and admire are the ones who can affect the way we think.
DeleteThat is a very good point. I really saw the strong prejudice that Mr.______ has for women when we learned about how he was hiding the letters from Nettie to Celia all because Nettie rejected him. He sees women as a toy that is incapable of having its own desires and can not function without his help. His lack of seeing woman as an actual human with feelings and goals, really comes through when he tries to take advantage of Nettie. He then asserts his male dominance over the situation by keeping the letters out of Celia's hand. It was a power move to prevent the letters from reaching Celia. Because he is a male, he can make that decision and interfere with the two sisters relationship. This is all because of aa rejection that made Mr.______ the less powerful person. His vulnerability, in the face of a woman, scared him because he doesn't respect women or even regard them as a person, so he is scared of losing his power to someone less than him. He gives prejudice to women because they are not equal to him.
DeleteI think this also ties into why we can't see our own privileges or prejudices. Because society doesn't really see women as equal to men, Mr. _______ doesn't either. Mr. ______ doesn't feel bad about how he treats Celie because he's been taught not to view her as an equal. If so much of the population has a certain prejudice, it's hard for one person to see how he is prejudiced. When Shug comes, she is able to get Mr. ______ to stop beating Celie, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he feels remorse or recognizes how prejudiced he is. I think that it'll be really hard for Mr. ______ to see and acknowledge his prejudice against women because he's grown up with this prejudice all his life, and so many people around him have the same prejudice.
DeleteThe unknown reply is Cait (As you mentioned, Harpo could be described as weak...")
DeleteIn the text, a particular scene compelled me: "You told Harpo to beat me, she said. No I didn't, I said. Don't lie, she said. I didn't mean it, I said. Then what you say it for? she ast... I say it cause I'm a fool, I say. I say it cause I'm jealous of you. I say it cause you do what I can't. What that? she say. Fight. I say" (42). I find these few lines to be significant because it subtly addresses the essential question of how privilege and prejudice are related. Although it has nothing to do with race, social class or wealth, Harpo's wife was gifted with the privilege to be able to fight. This privilege, although small, caused her to be able to defend herself against her husband's attempt at abuse. Consequently, this privilege lead to Celie being jealous of her physical strength and showing subtle signs of prejudice — she suggested that Harpo beat his wife because she was jealous of her privilege, and she judged Harpo's wife without considering her true character. This bias was caused by her envy of Harpo's wife's privilege. Although this example is implicit, it is a basic instance of the connection between privilege and prejudice.
ReplyDeleteI like your point, and that instance of Celie being in the middle of privilege and prejudice comes up again after Sofia and Squeak get in a fight. "Squeak pull up a chair. Look down my throat. What your real name? I ast her. She say, Mary Agnes. Make Harpo call you by your real name, I say. Then maybe he see you even when he trouble" (89). Celie has begun to realize that for the moment, she has more privilege than Squeak, who hasn't enough worth to even be called an actual name, or be more than someone for Harpo to use. And so Celie tries to tell Squeak that she should try to get some sway over Harpo. Celie cares for Sofia, maybe even more than she cares for herself. She knows that it is possible to stand up, to not allow the prejudice to touch you, to become privileged by gaining respect from others. So again Celie recognizes Squeak's lack of privilege, but instead of using this to her advantage, as she tried to do with Sofia's headstrong personality, she tries to boost her up, to make her aware of the very privilege she doesn't have, that she should fight for. Celie starts to take the first steps towards overcoming privilege and prejudice—acknowledging its existence, if unconsciously, and trying to spread awareness to others.
DeleteThis comment was Cait ^^ ("In the text, a particular scene compelled me...")
DeleteIt's incredible how white people can't take a loss, how they can't accept any threat to their privilege and power. "They have the nerve to try to make us think slavery fell through because of us, say Sofia. Like us didn't have sense enough to handle it" (107). I really love Sofia's character. She is so confident, so willing to do what she believes right, and call people out on thing they're doing wrong. "But how anything they build can last a day is a wonder to me. They backward, she say. Clumsy, and unlucky" (107). It's incredible how white people, by having slaves to put them selves in power, gave themselves a weakness. They no longer have as much experience with things such as building, and more often than not rely on the black population to do their jobs for them. Sofia realizes this. She doesn't avert her eyes or allow herself to be stepped over like Celie. She sees the truth, and doesn't shy away from its harshness. She's a leader, holding the lantern to lead the way out of the darkness. She does what is best for herself, like leaving Harpo, and still cares about Celie and her children. It isn't difficult for her to see the blatant prejudice that Celie considers a daily routine. "Every time they ast me to do something, Miss Celie, I act like I'm you. I jump right up and do just what they say" (93). Celie isn't fully aware that she should have a say in how her life goes. Sadly, as she was sexually abused by her father and practically given away to Mr._______, she doesn't expect or truly desire to run her own life. When Sofia came, Celie saw for the first time what it would be like to be in control. Sofia gains privilege because people are scared of her, and she is intimidating. Could you compare this to how other people in power use fear to rule? They are extremely different circumstances, and yet they are the same tactic. Sofia challenges the idea that privilege and prejudice have to be solved in complete peace. Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire.
ReplyDeleteWho's "Anonymous"? Please let me know so I can assign credit for your thoughtful posts.
DeleteAnyway, I think you make a great point about privilege being a disadvantage, insofar as it encourages dependence on others for practical skills and labor. Very true. However, when you say that Sofia gains privilege, it seems that she actually gains power, since she earns that control. In any case, the power she commands is different from the unearned privilege of whites.
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ReplyDeleteIn the book, I found an example of how someone can experience privilege and prejudice, which shows their relation to one another: “Although I work with Corrine and Samuel and look after the children, I don't feel like a maid. I guess this is because they teach me, and I teach the children and there's no beginning or end to teaching and learning and working—it all runs together.” (Pg 140). I feel like this is a moment where privilege and prejudice are working at the same time for Nettie. First of all her privilege is being in a better position than even her sister. Her sister, Celie, is suffering from living a boring life, where she gets beat by her husband and doesn't know the joys that life can offer her. All she really wants is to learn and we start to know that when Celie always talks about teaching her and being really smart. Nettie goes on vacation with her “family”, and she's exposed to so many delightful things that Celie will never get to know. But at the same time, she's not completely free. Nettie is working, and she has to work hard. Just because she has privilege over that of her sister, and many other people who are treated more like slaves than maids, she is still a maid. Life is best when you have the freedom to do as you please. She is being prejudiced against by being locked in this position because of her skin color, background, family. Nettie just wasn't pure enough to be free and to be rich within this corrupt society. She is a woman you has to struggle her way through life against the prejudice of everybody else and against the prejudice of her so-called family that she serves for. Privilege and Prejudice work together. You can still be prejudiced and have privilege, (privilege at least in comparison to others). That's how they're related, because they coexist with each other and work hand in hand, in most cases of prejudice there can be privilege but that is hard to acknowledge.
ReplyDeletePrejudice within this book has a very dominant role in the characters lives. I think in order to overcome the effects of prejudice is to slowly understand how it is effecting you. Once you really understand you situation, you can build strength and find small ways to fight it and gain more respect. For example, Celie learned from Sophie to realize how horribly Mr._______ treats her. She then passes on the same knowledge to squeak: "Squeak pull up a chair. Look down my throat. What your real name? I ast her. She say, Mary Agnes. Make Harpo call you by your real name, I say. Then maybe he see you even when he trouble" (89). The tiny things make all the difference in the world. I think in some cases you can never fully overcome the prejudice you may experience, but you can fight in a discreet manner. This quote just shows how Celie understands the prejudice against women and how she will try to empower others to stand up for themselves. Slowly gain control of your situation with understanding to lessen the constant prejudice.
ReplyDeleteIt is difficult to see our own privilege and Prejudice because sometimes we don't have the right amount of exposure. For example Celie never leaves Mr ._______ house. For a very long time she only has the children and him for human interaction. This keeps her completely sheltered so she is unknowing of what is out in the world beyond her tiny home or what she could be experiencing. But Nettie on the other hand, really does understand the prejudice she is always facing because she's traveling and she has exposure to education. Since the beginning of the book then he has been known for being a really smart student who is always eager to learn. She had access to school and education which exposed her to other aspects of life that some people in that time period would not have that experience. And Nettie is with a family that lets her vacation so she can see the world and know people around the world are also experiencing the same prejudice or situations as her: “Oh, Celie, there are colored people in the world who want us to know! Want us to grow and see the light! They are not all mean like Pa and Albert, or beaten down like ma was.” (138-139) I think this quotation from Nettie really shows how she is applying this new-found information to fully understand the prejudice and how she can overcome it or give advice to others. She is reassuring Celie that there is better life for people like themselves and that other people are also struggling to earn equity. Very little about two people get the same amount of exposure it's hard for them to see their own privilege or prejudice because they don't know any other way of living and they don't know other people live. This ignorance that is it installed into people's minds keep them from being able to acknowledge or recognize their own privilege or prejudice
ReplyDeleteAlong with Nettie and Squeak, I think Shug gives Celie some of the exposure that she needs in order to see the privilege and prejudice in her life. Celie admires Shug so much, and when Shug comes into her life and stops Mr. _____ from beating her, she's able to see how people can live without being beaten. Because she's been beaten for most of her life, she's never really known anything different, which just shows how important of a character Shug is. I think that the stories Sofia tells Celie about her time in prison and how she got there also give her some needed exposure. While Shug was able to expose Celie to how people like Mr. ______ were prejudiced toward her, Sofia exposed Celie to her privileges. Celie may have been jealous of Sofia's confidence and how she stands up to people like Harpo, but that same confidence is what landed her in prison. It's terrible, but Celie's low self-esteem might be what's keeping her fairly safe.
DeleteAnother example of how privilege and prejudice are related is shown in Sofia's interaction with the mayor's wife. Miss Millie has a prejudice against black people, as well as being more privileged than them. She exerts this privilege over Sofia by patronizing her and asking her to be her maid: "She look at the prizefighter car. She eye Sofia wristwatch. She say to Sofia, All your children so clean, she say, would you like to work for me, be my maid?" (90). Miss Millie may think that she's just being nice, offering Sofia a job, but if Sofia wasn't black, she probably would offer her a different job. Miss Millie being more privileged than black people really plays into her prejudice against them. Like I said, Miss Millie may think that she's just being nice, which means that her prejudice could be somewhat internalized, but it's definitely a prejudice nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteThat is a good point. I think so far in the book, this is a really good scene that demonstrates an implicit bias. Because Miss Millie is white, she has developed this bias against black people. She sees the black women, like Sophie, as a maid or servant right way. As you mentioned, if Sophie was white, this incident may not have occurred. And Miss Millie may not have been trying to be hurtful intentionally but because of this bias that whites develop towards black people, prejudice comes into play. I think this bias is developed because of the standards in society. Although in the book so far we haven't seen white people living in society a lot, we know from history and other works of writing, that the way white people live promotes prejudice and bias against black people.
DeleteThe characters and plot of "The Color Purple" somewhat play into the gender relations in our country today. In the story, men like Mr. ______ have so much power over women like Celie. There's so much abuse of women, which kind of means that men are even controlling their bodies. With anti-abortion laws being enacted in our country today, men controlling women's bodies is still happening. In Alabama, the only senators to vote for the abortion ban were white men, and they won 25 to 6. Even to this day, men are controlling women's bodies. We're in the 21st century, and things have improved, but now we're regressing into the state we were in when the book took place. Instead of women getting more rights (such as closing the wage gap), we're having them taken away. Celie is in the same situation, except instead of moving backwards, she's been in the same place her entire life. She's always been controlled by men, whether it be Pa or Mr. ______. Today, more and more women are being put in the same situation, with little control over their own bodies.
ReplyDeleteI like your point Grace! I think another example of this constant control over women is when Squeak is raped by her own uncle: "My wife beat up, my woman rape, he say." (100) it shows how women are treated like play toys for men. As you were pointing out Grace, men in this story and in our reality, control women and their bodies giving them no freedom and condemning them to a life of pain and suffering.
DeleteI think that Sofia is the closest one to breaking this barrier because she's the only one who actually stands up to the man who is beating her, but then the mayor sends her to prison, even though he's the first one to get physical. This is yet another example of men controlling women. Shug also kind of breaks this barrier when she gets Mr. ______ to stop beating Celie, but I think what Sofia does takes much more strength and confidence.
DeleteI entirely agree with your point as well, Grace. But despite the evident abuse and discrimination that the women in this story face daily, we also see glimpses of the new wave of feminism that is introduced to society decades after this book takes place. Obviously, this book is set in a time period where women are oppressed in society, especially black women in particular. However, as time progresses, the world sees more feminism around us; black women gain more rights. In The Color Purple, we see implicit examples of feminism growing in society. For example, Sofia stands up to Harpo and defies him physically. Plus, Shug defends Celie and tells Mr. _______ to stop beating her, which shows the development of girl power.
DeleteThis reply was Cait ^^ ("I entirely agree with you point as well, Grace...")
DeleteCelie isn't the only one who faces the problem of not being in control of her own life. Squeak is still under sway, though she's definitely made some progress. "I don't know if I want her to sing, say Harpo" (121). Harpo is realizing that he might lose control of another woman, and he needs to assert his dominance, even if it the cost is being seen as an idiot. Today, many men continue to make the assumption that they are better and deserve to be in control, as Grace was saying. We aren't moving as far forwards as we should. Though Celie and Squeak have made some improvement to their lives, there is still a lot to fight for. This mirrors the situation now: we have made some improvements: women can vote, we are closing the wage gap, and we are more aware of abuse than ever. Celie and Squeak are furthering awareness of this problem, and creating a fight of their own.
ReplyDeleteThis was a reply to Grace's gender relations post.
DeleteIt is well known that Mr.______ is one of Celie's main tormentors, one of the ones who is most prejudiced against women. "But, he weak, she say. His daddy told him I'm trash, my momma trash before me. His brother says the same. Albert try to stand up for us, git knock down"(127). Before this statement, Shug says that she and Albert had a type of love. He danced, and had a sense of humor. But since he was weak, he was swayed by his family, who was prejudiced before him. His prejudice was handed down, the way a hand-me-down sweater might be passed from one person to another. Shug knows that he changed. "How come he never hardly laugh? How come he don't dance? she say. Good god, Celie, she say, What happen to the man I love?" (126). Shug, it seemed, truly loved him. Loved, past tense. Because Albert was influenced, changed, by his father and brother's ideas. He decided it wasn't worth fighting for, and allowed them to hold the decent part of his brain captive, becoming the picture of an old, controlling man who thinks he deserves his so-called power. Maybe his prejudice against women comes from the prejudice against black people. White people have shunned black people for so long, some black men feel the need to dig themselves out of that hole by digging it deeper—they discriminate against women, to get the high of having power and privilege. So prejudice and privilege can be passed down from generation to generation, but it can also be adopted as a saving grace to elevate yourself from being the one prejudiced against, no matter that this only creates more scars and broken hearts.
ReplyDeleteAnya,
DeleteI like your point about prejudice sometimes being a prop to privilege, especially among those who question their status (like black men, poor whites, etc.). So we see instances of prejudice deflected and internalized.
Celie really looks up to Shug. "Not even to hear Shug Avery sing. I be thankful just to lay eyes on her" (26). Shug is in control her life, as much as she can be. Later on in the book, she makes steady money and is able to buy whatever she wants. She has a man who loves her, and can do what she wants, as much as a black woman can. However, in the beginning many people dislike Shug, and consider her to be a lot like a slut. She is discriminated against, even though she is confident and in control. This shows that everyone has some sort of privilege and/or prejudice against them. It also shows that privilege and prejudice are related, and often intertwine. You can also see this with Sofia, whose privilege backfires and ends her up in prison because she was discriminated against. Privilege come hand in hand, as shown in that scene.
ReplyDeleteThat is a good point. I think Shug is a very important character in this book because she helps to contrasts between the character but also similarities. Like you said, she also is discriminates against but not in the same way as the other characters in this book. I think her character displays a message of how you should live your life the way you please because no matter how you live you are likely to be discriminated against for some flaw. I think Shug was blessed with a voice and strong spirit but she gave herself the privilege of living freely by refusing to settle or to listen to the remarks of criticizing people. But the privilege she has does come with prejudice like you said. I think her character was a good addition to the book to change the focus of prejudice.
DeleteWhen Celie begins to give up on God, Shug tries to talk her out of it. Shug asks her about what she imagines God to look like, and she replies: "He big and old and tall and graybeareded and white. He wear white robes and go barefooted" (201). Shug tells her about how she came to realize the truth: "Ain't no way to read the bible the bible and not think . God white, she say" (202). White people interpreted the bible to fit their needs, to give them privilege and the ability to support their prejudice with evidence from God. In this way privilege and prejudice are related—through the bible. Shug shows how the white people created God to put them in power. If everyone thought God was white, then no one would challenge the white people. It was interesting to hear Nettie talk about how the colored people in Africa saw things. They claim Adam was the first white person, not the first person. "They say the white missionaries before Nettie and them come told them all about Adam from the white folks point of view and what the white folks know. But they know who Adam is from they own point of view. And for a whole lot longer time ago" (279). The people in Africa have their own point of view, their own beliefs of Adam and Eve and the Serpent. Missionaries were sent to educate the natives of their own religion, their point of view, in order to assert their own dominance as a race. The white people saw the people of Africa (and Olinka) as uneducated savages. They felt that they were better than them. And so the slave trade and centuries of discrimination began. It is interesting that Nettie, Samuel and Corrine are some of the first black missionaries the Olinka people have seen. When Shug tells Celie about how she sees God as everything, not as an old white man as the white people want them to believe. It is beautiful, how Shug sees God in everything, not as a person—trees, birds, rocks, how she sees God inside her. It's like in the Middle Ages, when the Pope would make people pay to get into Heaven, claiming that they had to buy God. Martin Luther knew that, that God was inside of people and couldn't be bought. History repeats itself. Celie starts the journey of realizing that the image of God as a white man came from the white man's bible, and that she can still find her own god.
ReplyDeleteYes, you're landing on the important understanding that whoever controls the narrative (scripture, history, etc.), controls the way people perceive the world. The dominant race seeks to recast the world in its own image.
DeletePrejudice is not always about race, as shown by Corrine's growing prejudice against Nettie. She remembers that the Olinka people thought Adam and Olivia were Nettie's children, and thinks that Nettie and Samuel met before. She becomes prejudiced based on her jealousy, and the influence of the Olinka people. "About a month ago, Corrine asked me not to invite Samuel to my hut unless she were present" (170). "And that was when I knew what she thought. She thinks Adam and Olivia are my children, and that Samuel is their father!" (178-179) Corrine doesn't trust Nettie like she once did. However, it is based on nothing but her own jealousy and the initial thoughts and questions of the Olinka people. Her idea is that Nettie is not trustworthy and has assisted her husband in acts of infidelity, but this opinion is not based on fact. She hasn't caught Samuel and Nettie together, and they haven't done anything to show or prove disloyalty. Corrine sees what she wants to see—Nettie's kindness towards the children. She doesn't allow them to call her "Mama Nettie" for fear it is the truth. Even when Nettie tells Corrine that she is the children's aunt, Corrine does believe her, as her prejudice has blinded her to Nettie's personality and unlikeliness to lie; this shows that prejudice can be born out of jealousy and influence.
ReplyDeleteI think this also ties into how privilege and prejudice are related. Corrine was more privileged than Nettie in a sense that she was wealthier and had a loving family. Though Nettie didn't have those things, she had the privilege of resembling Adam and Olivia. As soon as Corrine was aware of this privilege Nettie had that she didn't, she developed a prejudice towards her. This shows how even when you're more privileged when it comes to just about anything else, someone else having a privilege that you don't can cause you to develop a prejudice against that person.
DeleteIn the beginning of the book, both Celie's "father" and Mr.______ felt discriminated against her. They felt that because she was a woman, she was worth less, only good for bringing up children, cleaning the house, and listening to what they told her to do. Their abuse of Celie left her scarred and unsure of how to really live, to find herself. And yet, in the end of the books, Celie begins to heal. And not only does Celie begin to overcome the effects of prejudice, Mr. ______ begins to realize what he put Celie through, and starts to change. "Plus, he look like he trying to make something out of himself.... I mean when you talk to him now he really listen" (267). Shug helped Celie to love herself and not be frightened, which started a chain reaction as Squeak started to do the same. The women stuck together, and as they found their true passions and weren't afraid to follow them and leave the men behind, they helped each other get over the past and heal. Forgiveness helped them heal. Mr. _______ and Celie have conversations about Shug. They talk about what they love about her. They talk about what happened when all three of them were living together, when Shug was sick. They talk about her style, her experience, how she stuck up for Celie, why Mr.________ beat Celie. Together, as they talk about the past and who they love now, they overcome the bad effects of Mr.______ and other men's prejudice against women. Mr.________ starts to sew, unashamed now that he knows the men in Africa wear robes and dresses and sew too. "Well, nobody gon laugh at you now, I said. Here, help me stitch in these pockets. But I don't know how, he say. I'll show you, I said. And I did" (279). They form a friendship. Friendship is what helped Celie in the beginning, and it's going to continue to help her.
ReplyDeleteI love that turn of events! It suggests that overcoming prejudice is good for everyone, especially those blinded and limited by their own allegiance to single stories.
DeleteOops. The last post was made by me.
ReplyDeleteTo be prejudiced against, I think that you have to be natural and vulnerable. The most common prejudice of this unit has been given to black skinned people. Black people are in their natural form, but because of their difference they are branded a s a different type of human beings. This different type of human poses a threat to white peoples power, so the white people give prejudice to anyone with dark skin in order to maintain control. The blacks didn't necessarily go out of their way to be hated by white people, but their natural form proposed change and difference to the life of white people. In the book towards the end, Mr._________ and Celie became closer as friends and were able to talk to one another freely. One question did bombard them though. Mr.________ asks "Celie, tell me the truth. You don't like me cause I'm a man? I blow my nose. Take off they pants, I say, and men look like frogs to me. No matter how you kiss 'em, as far as I'm concern, frogs is what they stay." These were no modern times so same sex marriage or relationships were frowned upon. Although, the author doesn't''t give a situation where we can clearly see prejudice being given to Celie for her sexuality, but you know that it is there because nobody out right supports Celie's decision of sleeping with women. To "earn" prejudice or to receive it you have to be natural, vulnerable, and maybe posing a threat to old standards. Celie is just being herself , which in turn makes her vulnerable. Her newfound sexuality poses a threat on old standards because opposite sex marriages are the normal for people, and without normal the society seems to fall apart. I think this quote shows how vulnerable Celie is when coming outright about her distaste in men, because she is opening up to a man. By admitting to the thing that makes her vulnerable, she deserves prejudice in the eyes of white people or anti same sex marriage people.
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of Celie's distaste towards men also has to due with the experiences she's had with them since she was a child. Celie was treated terribly by Pa and Mr. ______. For most of her life, she only had negative experiences with men. Shug, on the other hand, didn't really have those experiences. "He's a man. I write on the paper. Yeah, she say. He is. And I know how you feel about men. But I don't feel that way" (257). Shug doesn't resent men the way that Celie does because she's never really been treated the way that Celie has. Shug has always been a strong and confident woman. She wouldn't let a man take advantage of her the way they took advantage of Celie. Because Shug never had those experiences, she didn't have the prejudice towards men that Celie had. Celie didn't inherit this prejudice, she developed it through experiences that people like Shug didn't have.
DeleteI like how you emphasized being natural to be prejudiced. And sort of like that but also not, the story that the Olinka people tell about the bible supports this. Their view is that the first people were black, and Adam was simply the first white person they didn't kill. "So really Adam wasn't even the first white man. He was just the first one the people didn't kill" (280). They discriminated against the white babies that were unnatural. And then the white babies told them that they would crush them as they would a snake. So basically, what someone considers as natural decides who they prejudice against. The black people didn't consider the white person natural, so they were prejudiced against that, and the white people prejudice against black people, because they feel that they are unnatural and thus inferior.
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ReplyDeleteThroughout the novel, the prejudice against women in evident, not only in America, but in Africa as well. The Olinka people believe that women aren't anything without men, and they make that pretty clear. "The Olinka do not believe girls should be educated. When I asked a mother why she thought this, she said: A girl is nothing to herself; only to her husband can she become something" (161-162). This internalized sexism is causing women to believe that not only are they inferior to men, but that they're nothing without them. Tashi's father also talks about how women shouldn't be educated: "Tashi is very intelligent, I said. She could be a teacher. A nurse. She could help the people in the village. There is no place here for a woman to do those things, he said. Then we should leave, I said. Sister Corrine and I. No, no, he said. Teach only the boys? I asked. Yes, he said, as if my question was agreement" (167-168). Even with all of that distance between them, Celie and Nettie experience very similar sexist situations in which, in some cases, even the women have given in to the men's beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI noticed this as well, Grace. I thunk that that is why the author picked Africa as another location to write about to show the similarities. In America all women are meant to doo is bear children and clean the house. The Olinka women are nothing without their husbands, or so they make themselves believe. I think Celie felt like Nettie was in a better place then her because she was experiencing less hate and discrimination, for she is in a different location. But as you pointed out, the distance din't bring a difference in discrimination, they are both discriminated for their gender.
DeleteI think that even Nettie thought she would face less discrimination by living in Africa because there would be more people that looked like her, but the Olinka people didn't feel the same way. They only saw Nettie and the rest of them as people from the western world, and they almost treated them as if they were white.
DeleteNot only is sexism a very prominent issue in both America and Africa, but so is racism. When talking about how she met the president of Monrovia, Nettie wrote in her letter to Celie, "The president talked a good bit about his efforts trying to develop the country and about his problems with the natives, who don't want to work to help build the country up. It was the first time I'd heard a black man use that word. I knew that to white people all colored people are natives. But he cleared his throat and said he only meant "native" to Liberia. I did not see any of these "natives" in his cabinet. And none of the cabinet members' wives could pass for natives" (148). She previously mentioned that there were white men and "white-looking colored men" in the cabinet. This depicts internalized racism because even with a black president, the cabinet members are white or white-looking. Plus, it's clear that the white people responsible for the rubber plantations didn't care about the Olinka people at all, and that most likely was because they viewed them as less than human.
ReplyDeleteI noticed this too. The president's slip-up by saying "natives" (and then taking a step back to defend himself by saying he meant "native" to Liberia,) shows how not just white men can be prejudice. Black men, women, even children can have biased thoughts and internally prejudiced opinions. Although these people may not explicitly act upon these thoughts, the bias is still subliminally there. The president is a black man himself, but he elected a cabinet full of white men — whether that was intentional or not — and he also used the word "native" in a negative and slightly biased context. Like I said before, this just shows how most people (even those of color,) have the potential to have biased mindsets.
DeleteNice point. When I read the pages that led to the white people building rubber plantations on the Olinka land I could see the racism that came into play. It was like the Olinka people were apart of the ground and must be moved if in the way. The Olinka's gave the white men workers meals and meals but they refused to notice because that's what black people are supposed to do (In their minds); serve the white people. Their kindness was neglected and the Olinka's were treated less like humans then ever, as their land slowly became the white peoples. It was very clear that the Olinka's tried to respect the white people but the white people ignored them and stole their land with no regret. This scene displayed racism even in a black dominant area.
DeleteSounds very similar to the apartheid society in South Africa prior to Nelson Mandela's take-over in 1994—minority white landowners and industrialists governing the country and withholding power from the black majority.
DeleteI think a major lesson that Celie learns throughout the book is that not everyone is going to love you — in her case, there were very few people who genuinely loved her. For example, Alphonso gave her away without reluctance, Mr. ______ abused her, etc. But she had to accept this, which is shown by the way that she bites her tongue whenever she is treated with disrespect; Celie doesn't defend herself, she simple accepts the abuse with sealed lips. Earlier on in the book, we see how Celie attempts to bring others down due to the fact that she wasn't being loved by Mr. ______: "You told Harpo to beat me, she said. No I didn't, I said. Don't lie, she said. I didn't mean it, I said. Then what you say it for? she ast... I say it cause I'm a fool, I say. I say it cause I'm jealous of you. I say it cause you do what I can't. What that? she say. Fight. I say." (42) In this interaction we see that Celie's contained emotions are spilling out, and the result of her not being loved is that she wants to inflict this negativity onto others — particularly by telling Harpo to beat Sofia. Then, in the end of the book, Celie is having a discussion with Mr. _____ and he says the following: "And I couldn't understand why us have life at all if all it can do most times is make us feel bad. All I ever wanted in life was Shug Avery, he say. And one while, all she wanted in life was me. Well, us couldn't have each other, he say. I got Annie Julia. Then you. All them rotten children. She got Grady and who know who all. But still, look like she come out better than me. A lot of people love Shug, but nobody but Shug love me. And then I figure this the lesson I was supposed to learn." (247-248) I think this was a defining moment for Celie because Mr. _____'s story made her realize that not everyone will always love us; we must accept that when others cannot love us the way that we love them. Shortly after, Celie applies this lesson by not spitting negativity towards Shug, but rather using her inhibitions and giving Shug even more love. "What do you know, I think. Shug jealous. I have a good mind to make up a story just to make her feel bad. But I don't." (248)
ReplyDeleteI like your point, and I think that prejudice and love are related. Celie grows up without truly feeling love. She isn't loved fully because of all the prejudices against her. Alphonso and Mr.________ both see her as only good for raising children because she is a woman. She is prejudiced as a black woman as well, and has probably learned from a young age that she isn't as good as white people. Even after leaving Alphonso's house, where many bad memories are connected, she doesn't find it until she meets the people who fight the discrimination. This is Shug and Sofia, who teach Celie how to fight herself, and to defeat the prejudices effects by learning to love herself.
DeletePrivilege and prejudice are related in this book. I think that these two forces come hand in hand take Nettie for example. She has the privilege to explore Africa and be a prat of a family that doesn't abuse her and includes her. But she also experiences prejudice by the Olinka people because of her gender; "The Olinka do not believe girls should be educated. When I asked a mother why she thought this, she said: A girl is nothing to herself; only to her husband can she become something" (161-162
ReplyDeleteIt's as if as soon as you earn a privilege, prejudice finds you because they are hand in hand. Celie experiences prejudice because of her race, gender, and sexuality. She doesn't have a clear of a privilege as Nettie does. But just because Nettie has the privilege of a lifetime to live somewhere other then the place she was born, she still experiences prejudice. And the prejudice comes from the Olinka tribe, which she grows close to. I think privilege just comes with the chance of prejudice they draw each other out and thats how they are related.
I really like your point, Emma. I think the author also wanted to show the similarities of prejudice and privileged being connected by showing that Celie faces similar issues. Except Celie doesn't have the privilege of having people that care about her, or being able to do something she feels passionate about. But Celie also faces the discrimination of women. However, Mr.______ realizes his mistakes and tries to correct them, whereas the Olinka people continue to abuse and not educate women.
DeleteOne way people gain their prejudices is through older generations that pass them down to younger generations. Mr. ______ passed his prejudice towards women down to Harpo, and both of them try to hold onto their power over the women in the story when they tell them they're going to Memphis. "Celie is coming to Memphis with me. Over my dead body, Mr. ______ say" (206). Harpo does the same thing with Mary Agnes: "Listen Squeak, say Harpo. You can't go to Memphis. That's all there is to it" (210). Mr. ______ and Harpo try as hard as they can to hold onto their power over the women, and they will continue to do so until they realize how wrong they are, which Mr. ______ eventually does.
ReplyDeleteWhen someone loves you, your life becomes happier and brighter. Cleie had only Nettie for the longest time. She loves Nettie, and that's the only thing that keeps her living. When Celie finds out that Nettie might have died on the boat it sinks her hope of ever seeing her again: "I sit here in this big house by myself trying to sew, bu what good is sewing gon do? What good is anything? Being alive begin to seem like a awful strain." (262) I think that this book shows just how much you ned somebody to love you or for you to love somebody. It is the only way to keep your sanity because otherwise you become depressed or enveloped by a great malaise. The author depicted such a strong bond between these two sisters to show just how much love can make you happy. I think without Nettie in Celie's mind at the end of the book, she wouldn't have survived. At the end of the book Celie is reunited with her sister, her one person that she loved dearly and she says; "Matter of fact, I think this is the youngest us ever felt." (295) The reuniting of the sisters brought joy to Celie in a way she never had experienced before. This love was the only way to survive and be happy which this books displays very well.
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